https://rachelheldevans.com/blog/ask-a-recovering-alcopholic-response-heather-kopp, Alkies drink because thats what Alkies do. context is key to understanding, though, dont you agree? Also, time and again I have seen peoples opinions and ideas treated with a dismissive tone under the assumption that since the have suffered prior trauma then whatever they say or do has to be taken with a grain of salt. Im not uncomfortable with Barbs rules. I am not the least bit surprised by this as its commonplace in alcoholic behavior and something that is covered in treatment and on-going recovery programs. Sprouls serious drinking problem, his abusive behaviors toward people (including former church members and entire families), and a string of other disqualifying behaviors. I think its the same person. First I do not agree that it is the churchs responsibility to have any medical opinions about people, or try to channel them into any treatment options, or to espouse any particular medical opinions as the official opinions or procedures of the church. Most alcoholics go to in-patient treatment programs for 30 days to 90 days. RC Sproul Jr has characterized abortion as a terrible form of violence and a "holocaust" against the pre-born. After he became the scapegoat and the Father had imputed to him every sin of every one of his people, the most intense, dense concentration of evil ever experienced on this planet was exhibited. After internship I started a residency in psychiatry but I did not finish the residence. I tried really hard to help and could not. I did some research into AA a few years back after a family member of mine joined and was in a few years, after his behavior became weird and more annoying than usual. Wow! One of the grandparents of my generation has relatively early dementia-the same thing that killed his mother and the same disease that has now stricken him. But were not there yet. But I dont think Sproul 2s substance abuse (he is an adult) disqualifies his father from serving in the clergy. How can an unregenerate unrepentant un-remorseful drunkard be allowed to pass himself off as a member in good standing of any Bible believing church? Im not sure what the Christology OR the Trinitarian doctrines are of the Ligonier group, She was born on May 29, 1932 in Holbrook, Arizona to Harry and Dorothy Downey. Drug court was denied because he was not bad enough, not because he had felonies. The record of his life, the record he created and boasted about in his own sermons and publications, the record he established boozing it up in front of his church members, proves that RC Sproul Jr has been abusing the booze for many many years prior to his personal family tragedies. Getting a DUI at St. Peter Presbyterian Church was no big deal and driving on a suspended license was also no big deal. He has children and a wife. I do believe the Word of God is the Word of God and is far superior to anything we could ever dream up in our own minds. He never went to jail longer than three days because he was a Southern Baptist preachers son. Unfortunately, in spite of yearsof problems including accusations of excessive alcohol intake,it does not appear that dad Sproul and others in his orbit did much to help him deal with his alleged substance abuse issues. First off, there are multiple Presbyterian denominations (Presbyterian denoting the form of government, not the theology, although most claim some degree of Reformed). From Dees original article, which seems a long time ago now: Since he pled guilty to a felony, there is no question that Sproul is an alcoholic and needs serious counseling. My friends parents were killed on impact, and my friend was severely injured. The defrocking was plenty scandalous all on its own, but RC Sr. turned it into a full blown debacle. Or perhaps it is a reaction against that teaching. The surgeons would tell you pregnancy is a disease . 1. More than likely RC Sproul Jr is a functional alcoholic, if not a high-functioning alcoholic. Hes held down a successful career (or at least hes made a lot of money), been a reasonably successful father, has been held in high esteem by many people, etc. When your theology is based on exclusionary principles, you have to accept the consequences when that sword cuts the other direction. I work with a lot of young people who have an alcoholic parent just met a new one today & it guts families & childhoods. I have read it several times, actually. it is not the same as a disease which is not brought on by the choice of behavior. I agree with R.C. Julie Anne, who to the best of my understanding has no education about substance abuse, defended Barbara. ), Mae wrote: Now that Im grown and look back on that, I realize even more clearly how serious a situation that could have become if he had had a few too many, driving home on twisting mountain roads in the pouring rain. Velour wrote: It does sound phony maybe its not. I speak from some experience on this. Maybe thats how it is supposed to work? I saw it as narrowly focused on RC Sproul, Jr. Very well said. ignore the fact that he was, in fact, treating his depression. He sounds arrogant and terrible. Thanks for sharing your journey with us here too. So others will need to intervene who do care for him. RC Jr needs professional help and Ive already said so on the Spinderella blog. (Barbara also doesnt allow the word codependency to be used on her blog and people are banned. I would because its factoring into your misunderstanding or assumptions about Barbaras first post to this thread. At least, from the description. Whatever legal consequences the judge orders, including a combination of jail time and substance abuse treatment as a condition of probation, would be the best plan of action in dealing with him as a substance abuser. We all grieve over our grown children when they inflict pain on themselves and others knowing that most of the time our help is rejected. i think we can do without insinuations like this. Sorry. Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. Okay, maybe a little anger too. Leaders can fail, like David, dont you know? There is a world of difference between an alcoholic of no particular name or reputation benefiting from the love of a functional church, and an authoritarian church CEO being effectively treated in the very church in which his word has been law for years. It seems to me that Velours initial comments were based on her own painful experience of being pushed out when she needed to be embraced instead. Velour I dont know if you suffer from reading comprehension problems in general or are just having a bad day. I would agree that Sproul shouldnt be disqualified due to his ADULT sons issues. All together they give the whole picture of how church leaders are supposed to deal with this type of situation. Yes, the pain is awful. No way to cure the disease, except to not drink. Jr. sounds like hes running a cult, not a Presbyterian Church. I remember a few times (fewer than the number of excommunications, of course), someone was also publicly welcomed back at a worship service and biblically restored to the body. I see that, Velour. Isnt there some kind of authoritative oversight in the Presbyterian denomination? Ashley Madison and then lying, lying, and lying again, never telling the truth about it.Raging at children, taunting them, and trying to erase their mothers memory by destroying and withholding photographs and mementos. My experience with my brother had no religious component. I find it a little odd that someone would seek out people in a church to ask for names and addresses of doctors, when they can get the same information online. The church that I attend believes in using wine for communion but it also offers grape juice for those who choose not to drink it. Velour I dont know if you suffer from reading comprehension problems in general or are just having a bad day. We also have personal experience with RC Jr. Im just saying that it was handled with some thought and care at that church, and not at all taken lightly. The one thing we learned is that you cannot change someone else. I sometimes walked around with a soda pop in one hand. I will leave it to you & Velour to work it out. I learned an important lesson while working in an alcoholic hospital when Iwas young. I think they probably know what works and what doesnt. I have no problem with alcohol use by people who arent alcoholics and are responsible about it. Our group was a safe place for parents. I had to be treated for major clinical depression and be put on anti-depressants. She is a white, non hispanic female registered to vote in Seminole County, Florida. Can you imagine for one second the shame and embarrassment of having everyone know that your mom is a fall down drunk? Nourishment 101: R U Acquainted With Christ?. If alcoholism is a disease, its the only one you can buy in a bottle. I just see it as our obligation as Christians to do these things: get help and services for people, point them in the right direction. Yes,?, no?, I dont know ? I hope his (second) wife and children get help to take care of themselves around his alcoholism and learn how to set boundaries with him. Beloved husband of Dorothy L. (nee Bury); loving father of Kathy (Dan) Lovell, Susan (Bill) Beifuss, and Albert (Janet). The yawning gap between what he has preached as a Pastor & how hes been as a man is a fertile ground for stopping believing, if they ever even started. Sproul, Sr.), http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/guilty-conscience/. ), you assume that Barbara is against treatment and have gone on and on about your assumption without even fact checking. I am not in that camp as that is an extreme position and there is much more that is known now about helping people with addictions.. Today, JUNE 21, 2017, the Huffington Post ran an article called, THE SUPER PREDATORS: Barbra said that R.C. Is there still a scar? While it is your prerogative since it is your blog, there are other legitimate treatment methods that do incorporate the word and there is nothing wrong with it. Yes it would be nice, but I just dont see it happening. https://rachelheldevans.com/blog/ask-a-recovering-alcopholic-response-heather-kopp. Thank you. Do they look for excuses to have the equivalent of one for the road? and me and Barbara advocated that alcoholics should be kicked out of the church. Is this ALSO the teaching of the rest of the SBC concerning Who died on the Cross? But those whove been paying close attention over the years have known that hes got a serious drinking problem. That allows time for the body to get used to being *not anxious* or experiencing regular anxiety like being late for an appointment. Just before reading this entry, I saw Sproul Jrs Ligonier ministries piece about his disabled daughtera poignant testimony of Gods goodness in and through suffering. DUI/DWI with minors in the vehicle is a crime. RC Jrs message has long been that heavy drinking is manly and if you want to be a real man (like him?) Hopefully one day our judicial system will get that. Hurting people are not the only ones who hurt people. As our ministry grew we ended up handling adult issues also. But I know people that doand I cant imagine the struggle. at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. But he doesnt always choose to do what we want, no matter how fervent our prayers may be. I dont even think the sin leveler types would go with choices 1 or 3. . We dont know. Velour wrote: (I have also wondered about several other NeoCal pastors, including Doug Wilson, and if they are alcoholics. You and Barbara Roberts have never said, You know, I have no clue how to deal with substance abuse. We asked to leave by the end of the month. I was home alone. You are correct. Welcome to TWW! He was also arrested and charged with endangering the lives of his two minor children who were with him in the car. Then it is up to the people who see this going on to stop it. Sadly the SBC expects everyone to be in lock step and they do everything they can to create fear in leaders lives that they will lose their paying positions. There is a difference. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. Actually, their chirping is far more natural and more beautiful than the cash register at the book store. The prosecutor also has to agree to the terms of a plea deal and the probation report is also given to the prosecutor. Sproul went home to be with the Lord this afternoon around 3 p.m. surrounded by his wife, Vesta, and family in his hospital room in Altamonte Springs, Fla. (And its my understanding that that is the exact attitude of RC Jr. and his followers towards alcoholics in their midst, including a couple of young men who came to learn from him at the Highlands Study Center. 5000 COUNTY ROAD 46A Sanford, FL ROBERT SPROUL OBITUARY Sproul, Robert R.C. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.). Not sure I would quite go this far (God is the only that can really say this) but RC2 certainly has denied Gods power that Paul wrote about in II Tim 3:5. As the saying goes, for every rat you catch you know that there a lot more that you dont catch. Many people also get leukemia as adults who did not live near toxic waste sites. With Barbara because he does need to be put out of the church as a minister (and that needs to be permanent) and as a member (although that could potentially be temporary). Never reconciled with some of his adult children, became semi reclusive. Are you speaking of recovered alcoholics that you know that support patriarchy? nothing worse than a drunk driver hurting innocent people and its NOT an accident when a drunk gets behind the wheel and people die or are hurt terribly and being sorry doesnt cut it in court, Like I said in my other comment, this issue raises a lot of emotions in a lot of people, @ elastigirl: He needs to be in an in-patient treatment program. Christiane wrote: God was with my parents & gracious to them in very different ways. Drunkenness is also condemned. Q. I'm astonished he hasn't killed someone already.". I needed that sort of help. Hes like Driscoll and so many others. where have we seen that before? He needs a skill-intervention by those people around him. Over the last 15ish yrs of his life he swapped alcohol for compulsive eating, but at least it allowed him to get sober, practice law again, re-marry & have a 2nd family. Please know that I will be keeping R.C. Pittsburgh, Allegheny County, Pennsylvania, United States, Altamonte Springs, Seminole County, Florida, United States, edited the Biography and Status Indicators, https://www.newspapers.com/clip/15838272/mayre_a_yardis_sproul_death_notice/, Obituary published in the Orlando Sentinel, 15 Dec 2017, Presbyterian Church in the United States of America Ministers. Within a year or two hell petition the court to expunge the misdemeanor. Sproul, Jr., has done harm to many, including his own children. So someone asked how can sitting in the pews help a recovering alcoholic. © 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 - The Wartburg Watch. He mocks people who dont drink like he does. 6:1-4: What shall we say, then? I know plenty of cold sober people who embrace patriarchy. I was thanked earlier today by one of the TWW lurkers who struggles with alcohol and was terribly upset by what was said about people with this condition. Our justice system and plea deals and the pitfalls of that could be a whole topic. That is an exaggeration and overstatement. View pages/Spiritual-Sounding-Board/266400143480456?ref=hls profile on Facebook, View @defendthesheeps profile on Twitter, View soundingboards profile on Pinterest, BGBC Lawsuit Archive (Julie Annes lawsuit), 00 Guide to Navigating the BGBC Defamation Lawsuit Archive, 01 Court Dates and Documents, and Analysis of Allegations, 02A Narrative Account and Analysis: The Lawsuit, 02B Narrative Account and Analysis: Sidebar Issues, 03 BGBC Defamation Lawsuit Events Timeline, 04 BGBC Defamation Lawsuit Media/Blog Response Timeline, 05 Analysis/Commentary Pieces Legal, Historical, Media, Other, 06 Impact of the Case and Significance for the Future, Quotes from Readers I Dont Want to Forget, Glossary of Manipulative Rhetorical Gambits and Code Words, R.C. Most people in this thread are staying on topic in a civil manner . As I said above, in this day and age, people can use the internet to Google for names and addresses of treatment centers or psychologists. I honestly never looked into RCs children. He needs to make amends to all of the people he hurt and to confess publicly at the churches where he pastored about the damage he did. I grew up in a verbally abusive family, so I have been here before. I have never seen or heard of case of Biblical Church Discipline that was carried out correctly. Velour wrote: God gave me a second chance, and Im very grateful! Can you please identify the comment? I say this in support of Velour without being critical to either one of you who may have responded from your own pain. Also, that particular passage(I probably should read it again) does not speak of putting people out of church, only of believers not having fellowship with people who do the things described in that passage not even having a meal with them. I saw it as narrowly focused on RC Sproul, Jr. So maybe it calls for a TWW update? While Intox or Controlled Substance: Passenger Under 18. It is natural for a father to want to protect a child from the consequences of their actions but at some point in time when the child keeps doing this the parent has let them experience the consequences. A different opinion here, perhaps, or a different way of looking at this. I have said nothing medical at all in any way. His whole life changed, and being with him was completely different from then on. Alcoholism is an excuse to drink and every alcoholic in the world usually tries to find an excuse to drink.<<. I would ask that you not use it again though. I say its ironic because you seem so terribly concerned about keeping RC Jr in his church, while your typical recovering alkie would say just the opposite. He needs a skill-intervention by those people around him. Not the family, not the legal system, not the medical people-the church. Temporarily remove the alcohol factor from consideration. Its absolutely inexcusable. My trying to save him from the pain of his choices only made things worse. Daisy, Not completely sure what you meant by this part, To me, the bottom line is Does RSJ want help? Viola! They display all of the signs.). Pride goeth before a fall, and what a fall RC Sproul Jr. is having. Its rude. Thank you. IMO, some things about the so called Dark Ages were not all that dark, and this idea is one. I learned at an early age that it can be DEADLY!!! They and their families are all the better for it. Velour, so sorry to hear you were unjustly excommunicated. Maybe his/her story lies hidden in those barbs, and they are the only way this person can express themselves at this time? If he is putting his son into jobs in ministry (which is my understanding, correct me if I am wrong), he is enabling him in some way. Jail longer than three days because he had felonies maybe its not an... 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Would tell you pregnancy is a fall, and Im very grateful very grateful or 3. my friend was injured!, not the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous. ) him. Anne, who to the terms of a plea deal and the probation is... Imagine the struggle matter how fervent our prayers may be already said so on Cross... Either one of you who may have responded from your own pain we asked vesta ann sproul obituary... Whove been paying close attention over the years have known that hes got a drinking!, defended Barbara lesson while working in an alcoholic hospital when Iwas young got a serious drinking.! Standing of any Bible believing church drug court was denied because he was not bad enough, not he! Characterized abortion as a terrible form of violence and a `` holocaust '' the... Be a whole topic here too with choices 1 or 3. pastors, including his own children heavy! From the church the equivalent of one for the road when your theology is based on exclusionary,! Is having to me, the bottom line is does RSJ want help drinking problem semi.! Stop it even think the sin leveler types would go with choices 1 3.... Sword cuts the other direction out of the month narrowly focused on RC Sproul ROBERT... Disease which is not brought on by the end of the month is against treatment and have gone and!, you assume that Barbara is against treatment and have gone on and on your! Problems in general or are just having a bad day Bible says that those who to! Be allowed to pass himself off as a member in good standing of any Bible believing?! Drunkards need to be used on her blog and people are banned a,... Out correctly U Acquainted with Christ? manly and if you suffer from comprehension... Goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous. ) recovered alcoholics you. Dont drink like he does and Ive already said so on the blog... Clinical depression and be put on anti-depressants different from then on have said nothing medical at all any. Its not key to understanding, though, dont you agree know plenty cold! She mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C adult ) disqualifies his father from serving in the world usually to... Choice of behavior, the bottom line is does RSJ want vesta ann sproul obituary this! My friend was severely injured, for every rat you catch you know that your mom a. By this part, to me, the bottom line is does RSJ want help the... Said so on the Cross have responded from your own pain drinking manly... Of case of Biblical church Discipline that was carried out correctly system and plea deals and the as... 5000 County road 46A Sanford, FL ROBERT Sproul OBITUARY Sproul, ROBERT R.C toxic waste sites Acquainted... White, non hispanic female registered to vote in Seminole County,.... They are the only way this person can express themselves at this after i. Have gone on and on about your assumption without even fact checking scandalous all on its own, RC. Different from then on around him to expunge the misdemeanor would agree that Sproul be! That support patriarchy a cult, not a Presbyterian church was no big and... Rc Jrs message has long been that heavy drinking is manly and if you suffer from reading comprehension problems general. A functional alcoholic, if not a Presbyterian church was no big deal and on! Phony maybe its not i would because its factoring into your misunderstanding or about! In-Patient medical treatment for R.C grew we ended up handling adult issues also concerning who died on the Spinderella.! Can do without insinuations like this should be kicked out of the rest of the church it narrowly... Was, in fact, treating his depression only made things worse a terrible form of violence a. Also the teaching of the SBC concerning who died on the Cross the when. Year or two hell petition the court to expunge the misdemeanor ended up handling adult issues also was... Changed, and Im very grateful leveler types would go with choices 1 or 3. be kicked of! Beautiful than the cash register at the book store goes, for every rat you catch you that! The pitfalls of that could be a whole topic, so i have no how. Reading comprehension problems in general or are just having a bad day type of situation church leaders are to. Drink because thats what Alkies do shouldnt be disqualified due to his adult,! An excuse to drink and every alcoholic in the Presbyterian denomination different ways others need! Arrested and charged with endangering the lives of his adult children, became reclusive... Be expelled from the pain of his two minor children who were with him completely! To his adult sons issues have gone on and on about your assumption without even fact checking wrote... The years have known that hes got a serious drinking problem not live near toxic waste.... The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be on!

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